Sexual Orientation & Gender Identity Support Thread

Idk but I know tomboy was a term used for a long time for females who would have a lean towards masculinity vs females who wouldn't... Whether it was about interests, clothing, or activities. They wouldn't fit as a boy or girl but they were female. I'm not sure if that fits what your looking for.

(Is tomboy an acceptable term today or is it not a good term now?)
Tomboy is still fine to use, but it's a term typically directed towards cisgender girls who have interests and hobbies which are typically regarded as masculine or intended for boys, i.e. sports, cars, video games, etc. I'm not sure I would advise conflating it with gender identity, however, as it's a term that many people still use and self-identify with, so it might lead to confusion. Namely, I think it's wrong to regard your interests, fashion choices, and etc. as directly linked to your sexual orientation or gender identity. They are at best secondary characteristics that often correlate to, but are not the direct result of, both of those things. Someone can have interests that are typically seen as masculine, or dress entirely in clothing marketed towards men, or have the most muscular physique and still consider themselves a woman. Just as there are men who have traditionally feminine interests but still identify as male.

I think the term sort of went out of popular usage after girls being into sports other than swimming, gymnastics, tennis, and cheerleading became socially acceptable. And there isn’t anything wrong with a girl being interested in rock climbing or wrestling but back when I was a kid in the 90s, it was very unusual to see a girl doing any extreme sports. That’s how I’ve always interpreted the term tomboy. At least it’s better sounding and not as harsh than what is still being used to describe effeminate boys. I just think society is really really weird in that it is acceptable that a girl is more interested in masculine activities and plays with toys targeted to boys but the moment they see a boy playing with a doll or trying on a dress because he’s curious to see what it would feel like wearing it, it’s deemed that something is horribly wrong with him.
It's worth a note that it hasn't always been like this; it's taken centuries for girls to be allowed to enter typically male-dominated areas and not be scoffed at or socially ostracized. And there are many areas where they still are. Women who are into body building or more physical contact sports (football, wrestling, etc.) are given much more scrutiny than other activities that are deemed acceptable for girls. And it is still difficult to go into an electronics store and not be faced with a sales rep trying to get you to buy something you don't need because they think you're too stupid to know better (which isn't a problem that women exclusively face, but the way it manifests is tangibly different), or have patronizing customers who will use your gender as a springboard to over-analyze every purchasing decision you make. And that's just the more petty trifles that are annoying but not necessarily harmful. Depending on where you're from and what social circles you're surrounded by, girls may still face aggression or are treated as aliens for expressing interest in things outside traditionally feminine activities.

The reason boys tend to receive a lot more noticeable aggression (aside from the obvious societal prejudices that are much heavier and I won't go into here) when they engage with more traditionally feminine aesthetics and activities is because social progress has shifted the conversation away from "girls should focus on being more ladylike housekeepers" to "well, it makes sense that women would like to have the same rights as men, because men are awesome and everyone wants to be a man!" The implication being that no one would willingly choose to be a woman.

It's why I feel questions like "Why aren't there more female engineers?" are often sidestepping the more important question of "Why are female-dominated career fields, such as teaching and nursing, seen as 'lesser' options?" Because even in discussions of sexual equality, men are still erroneously used as the ultimate litmus test.
 
Tomboy is still fine to use, but it's a term typically directed towards cisgender girls who have interests and hobbies which are typically regarded as masculine or intended for boys, i.e. sports, cars, video games, etc. I'm not sure I would advise conflating it with gender identity, however, as it's a term that many people still use and self-identify with, so it might lead to confusion. Namely, I think it's wrong to regard your interests, fashion choices, and etc. as directly linked to your sexual orientation or gender identity. They are at best secondary characteristics that often correlate to, but are not the direct result of, both of those things. Someone can have interests that are typically seen as masculine, or dress entirely in clothing marketed towards men, or have the most muscular physique and still consider themselves a woman. Just as there are men who have traditionally feminine interests but still identify as male.


It's worth a note that it hasn't always been like this; it's taken centuries for girls to be allowed to enter typically male-dominated areas and not be scoffed at or socially ostracized. And there are many areas where they still are. Women who are into body building or more physical contact sports (football, wrestling, etc.) are given much more scrutiny than other activities that are deemed acceptable for girls. And it is still difficult to go into an electronics store and not be faced with a sales rep trying to get you to buy something you don't need because they think you're too stupid to know better (which isn't a problem that women exclusively face, but the way it manifests is tangibly different), or have patronizing customers who will use your gender as a springboard to over-analyze every purchasing decision you make. And that's just the more petty trifles that are annoying but not necessarily harmful. Depending on where you're from and what social circles you're surrounded by, girls may still face aggression or are treated as aliens for expressing interest in things outside traditionally feminine activities.

The reason boys tend to receive a lot more noticeable aggression (aside from the obvious societal prejudices that are much heavier and I won't go into here) when they engage with more traditionally feminine aesthetics and activities is because social progress has shifted the conversation away from "girls should focus on being more ladylike housekeepers" to "well, it makes sense that women would like to have the same rights as men, because men are awesome and everyone wants to be a man!" The implication being that no one would willingly choose to be a woman.

It's why I feel questions like "Why aren't there more female engineers?" are often sidestepping the more important question of "Why are female-dominated career fields, such as teaching and nursing, seen as 'lesser' options?" Because even in discussions of sexual equality, men are still erroneously used as the ultimate litmus test.
Perhaps, but tomboy isn't typically attached to necessarily cis females. I mean at one time long long ago it was in USA due to women's rights circumstances. Tomboy is attached to females who has masculine traits and present that. Such as androgynous clothing or behaviors. The female could be cis, lesbian, ect.


I guess I should just ask, what's the difference between nonbinary and tomboy if tomboy isnt a type of nonbinary because I feel like I'm missing something here.
 
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Perhaps, but tomboy isn't typically attached to necessarily cis females. I mean at one time long long ago it was in USA due to women's rights circumstances. Tomboy is attached to females who has masculine traits and present that. Such as androgynous clothing or behaviors. The female could be cis, lesbian, ect.


I guess I should just ask, what's the difference between nonbinary and tomboy if tomboy isnt a type of nonbinary because I feel like I'm missing something here.
I don't know what you mean, largely because I still see these phrases used everyday. So I don't get the impression that its usage has changed in recent years. As an example, it's been used lovingly to describe Lois Lane in the most recent Superman cartoon; pretty much exclusively to refer to her aesthetic and interests, rather than her gender identity. Also, I'm sure you didn't mean it in this way, but "cis" and "lesbian" aren't antonyms, so...???

In any case, it's not that I'm opposed to the use of the word "tomboy" for people who are non-binary if they feel it suits their personality, but I feel it would be erroneous to use it specifically as a label for your gender identity due to its continued use to mean other things. If someone were to say they're a tomboy to me, it would not communicate to me a difference in gender, but simply that they have different interests and hobbies. It's not that it's wrong, it's that it's not helpful for that specific application.

Someone who actually is trans or non-binary can perhaps explain it better than I can, but the difference is that tomboy is a descriptive label for aesthetic and/or personality, which is different to gender identity. Someone's identity, the core of their being, is not intrinsically tied to this idea. It is no more a statement on a person's gender than "shy" or "curious" or "silly" or anything of that matter. Being tech-savvy doesn't make some a technician, eating vegetables doesn't make someone a vegetarian, etc. etc. If a person who is into sports and assigned female at birth discovers they are non-binary, they don't stop being non-binary just because they discover that they prefer cooking later in life, or they don't stop being non-binary simply because their taste in fashion also changes. Similarly, people who identify as "twinks" and/or "femboys" might have overlapping interests and face similar societal prejudices as trans women, but they are not inherently trans women.

It is true that what constitutes a "tomboy" is largely dictated by cultural norms of the time and location, but not conforming to societal norms is not the same as being of a different gender entirely.

[Okay, so I ran this past one of my non-binary friends, and they came up with the perfect description. They said it's like saying your gender is goth or emo. It wouldn't be a helpful description.]
 
I don't know what you mean, largely because I still see these phrases used everyday. So I don't get the impression that its usage has changed in recent years. As an example, it's been used lovingly to describe Lois Lane in the most recent Superman cartoon; pretty much exclusively to refer to her aesthetic and interests, rather than her gender identity. Also, I'm sure you didn't mean it in this way, but "cis" and "lesbian" aren't antonyms, so...???

In any case, it's not that I'm opposed to the use of the word "tomboy" for people who are non-binary if they feel it suits their personality, but I feel it would be erroneous to use it specifically as a label for your gender identity due to its continued use to mean other things. If someone were to say they're a tomboy to me, it would not communicate to me a difference in gender, but simply that they have different interests and hobbies. It's not that it's wrong, it's that it's not helpful for that specific application.

Someone who actually is trans or non-binary can perhaps explain it better than I can, but the difference is that tomboy is a descriptive label for aesthetic and/or personality, which is different to gender identity. Someone's identity, the core of their being, is not intrinsically tied to this idea. It is no more a statement on a person's gender than "shy" or "curious" or "silly" or anything of that matter. Being tech-savvy doesn't make some a technician, eating vegetables doesn't make someone a vegetarian, etc. etc. If a person who is into sports and assigned female at birth discovers they are non-binary, they don't stop being non-binary just because they discover that they prefer cooking later in life, or they don't stop being non-binary simply because their taste in fashion also changes. Similarly, people who identify as "twinks" and/or "femboys" might have overlapping interests and face similar societal prejudices as trans women, but they are not inherently trans women.

It is true that what constitutes a "tomboy" is largely dictated by cultural norms of the time and location, but not conforming to societal norms is not the same as being of a different gender entirely.

[Okay, so I ran this past one of my non-binary friends, and they came up with the perfect description. They said it's like saying your gender is goth or emo. It wouldn't be a helpful description.]
Yeah I didn't mean cis and lesbian as antonyms (which is why ect. was there) but I was trying make the point of sexuality. Like a person can be cis or lesbian or asexual ect and a tomboy.
Maybe I just view the tomboy label differently I guess. I don't view it as an aesthetic. It's more than that. But maybe there is a better term out there somewhere.
 
I don't know what you mean, largely because I still see these phrases used everyday. So I don't get the impression that its usage has changed in recent years. As an example, it's been used lovingly to describe Lois Lane in the most recent Superman cartoon; pretty much exclusively to refer to her aesthetic and interests, rather than her gender identity. Also, I'm sure you didn't mean it in this way, but "cis" and "lesbian" aren't antonyms, so...???

In any case, it's not that I'm opposed to the use of the word "tomboy" for people who are non-binary if they feel it suits their personality, but I feel it would be erroneous to use it specifically as a label for your gender identity due to its continued use to mean other things. If someone were to say they're a tomboy to me, it would not communicate to me a difference in gender, but simply that they have different interests and hobbies. It's not that it's wrong, it's that it's not helpful for that specific application.

Someone who actually is trans or non-binary can perhaps explain it better than I can, but the difference is that tomboy is a descriptive label for aesthetic and/or personality, which is different to gender identity. Someone's identity, the core of their being, is not intrinsically tied to this idea. It is no more a statement on a person's gender than "shy" or "curious" or "silly" or anything of that matter. Being tech-savvy doesn't make some a technician, eating vegetables doesn't make someone a vegetarian, etc. etc. If a person who is into sports and assigned female at birth discovers they are non-binary, they don't stop being non-binary just because they discover that they prefer cooking later in life, or they don't stop being non-binary simply because their taste in fashion also changes. Similarly, people who identify as "twinks" and/or "femboys" might have overlapping interests and face similar societal prejudices as trans women, but they are not inherently trans women.

It is true that what constitutes a "tomboy" is largely dictated by cultural norms of the time and location, but not conforming to societal norms is not the same as being of a different gender entirely.

[Okay, so I ran this past one of my non-binary friends, and they came up with the perfect description. They said it's like saying your gender is goth or emo. It wouldn't be a helpful description.]
I meeeaaannn… I see what you’re saying and where you’re coming from.

If gender is fake and made up anyway, all that matters is people are using descriptors and labels to identify themselves that they feel most comfortable with. Gender and aesthetic is a venn diagram. Not all Tomboys are non-binary of course, but there’s no reason why an NB person couldn’t use Tomboy as a description of their gender. Tomboy does have a certain societal connotation with it, but words change meaning and evolve their meaning with the times. Queer was once a slur and is now an identity, etc.

EDIT: After looking back through the thread, I see now someone was trying to clarify the proper use of the term Tomboy in general and/or as a non-binary identity. So, I do see how this explanation clarifies the use of Tomboy in an aesthetic sense, but I still stand by the idea it can be used as a description of gender. For what it’s worth, I am non-binary.
 
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I meeeaaannn… I see what you’re saying and where you’re coming from.

If gender is fake and made up anyway, all that matters is people are using descriptors and labels to identify themselves that they feel most comfortable with. Gender and aesthetic is a venn diagram. Not all Tomboys are non-binary of course, but there’s no reason why an NB person couldn’t use Tomboy as a description of their gender. Tomboy does have a certain societal connotation with it, but words change meaning and evolve their meaning with the times. Queer was once a slur and is now an identity, etc.

EDIT: After looking back through the thread, I see now someone was trying to clarify the proper use of the term Tomboy in general and/or as a non-binary identity. So, I do see how this explanation clarifies the use of Tomboy in an aesthetic sense, but I still stand by the idea it can be used as a description of gender. For what it’s worth, I am non-binary.
Even in LGBT circles, the word "queer" is somewhat contentious. Not all people who fall under that category were on board with reclaiming the slur, though I think the ship has sailed on that one, so it's far too late for anyone to argue against it. When it comes to tomboy, my issue isn't with the evolution of language changing its meaning overtime; my issue is that it is still currently being used in such a way that wouldn't be particularly useful and might create more confusion, even among other non-binary people and their advocates. Plus, multiple posts in this thread have claimed that it's not used as widely in the traditional sense anymore, and I simply don't understand because from my experiences as recently as this very month, it has been used in exactly the same manner it has been since the 90's if not earlier. So it's not the evolution of the word; it's the lack thereof.

I am willing to concede to tomboy being fine as a descriptor of gender when used in conjunction with other terms. Using it a a sole descriptor of gender, however, is where I think my contention lies, but that is a semantic debate which I don't think I really have any place to weigh in on. I also think it's fine if tomboy is used as a phrase within trans and non-binary circles to have a meaning specific to those communities, and if that meaning eventually eclipses the original meaning overtime, then that's also fine. My point was moreso that at the moment it's not, not that it shouldn't and should never. When the question "What is the difference between 'tomboy' and 'nonbinary'" was posed, my initial thought was that the conversation was delving into rhetoric such as "You like sports? Then, that means you are non-binary!" which, in my opinion, is not the sort of reframing we should be advocating, but more pertinently is a misunderstanding of the two concepts in general. If that was not the intention, then I apologize for that.
 
"what's the difference between nonbinary and tomboy if tomboy isnt a type of nonbinary" is different than what's the difference between nonbinary and tomboy. I think I understand where others may be coming from those who aren't a fan of the term describing identity, but I also feel like maybe the meaning of tomboy is missed. Liking sports while being female doesn't mean they must be a tomboy either. Tomboy in a Google search seems to focus on a person that is female but have masculine traits. Traits are multiple things and show up in behavior, clothing both are presentation, as well as interests such as the common mention of sports, but it isn't just one or two things or a fashion style. Females who are tomboys don't fit the female or male gender labels though their sex is female. At least that's my understanding. It's fine if it's (my view) incorrect or just not commonly seen. But this discussion has been interesting and by no means was I trying to step on toes if that was the feeling anyone had. I was just asking and trying to understand. It's all cool here.
 
"what's the difference between nonbinary and tomboy if tomboy isnt a type of nonbinary" is different than what's the difference between nonbinary and tomboy. I think I understand where others may be coming from those who aren't a fan of the term describing identity, but I also feel like maybe the meaning of tomboy is missed. Liking sports while being female doesn't mean they must be a tomboy either. Tomboy in a Google search seems to focus on a person that is female but have masculine traits. Traits are multiple things and show up in behavior, clothing both are presentation, as well as interests such as the common mention of sports, but it isn't just one or two things or a fashion style. Females who are tomboys don't fit the female or male gender labels though their sex is female. At least that's my understanding. It's fine if it's (my view) incorrect or just not commonly seen. But this discussion has been interesting and by no means was I trying to step on toes if that was the feeling anyone had. I was just asking and trying to understand. It's all cool here.
The term has always been rather nebulous in concept, with a myriad of discussion, so I think the strict Google definition isn't particularly helpful. The primary difference that I'm getting at isn't merely presentation, but what the person in question perceives themselves as being. A cisgender woman (or even a trans woman) who identifies as a tomboy doesn't necessarily see herself as being anything other than female, she's merely using the term "tomboy" to describe that she has traits and interests which are more in line with what culture deems to be masculine. That's where the hang up is.
 
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I will chime in here just on the use of the term 'tomboy' because it's a term I frequently use to describe myself. I am a cis female and I have always strongly associated myself with being female. However, I refer to myself as a tomboy because, despite feeling 100% female, I have a natural preference for things that society perceives as more male-oriented.

I love contact sports like football and martial arts. I enjoy action movies and fighting games. I prefer doing the more 'masculine' chores like mowing the grass or cleaning the gutters versus washing dishes or vacuuming. I don't feel comfortable in most types of feminine clothing. I generally wear jeans and mens' shirts.

These are all things that are a part of me, but none of them has any impact on my gender identity which is female. I simply wish society would recognize that these things are neither male or female.

So to stay on topic, I think a non-binary person could also be a tomboy, but I don't view it as a gender identity. If they wanted to adopt the term, I certainly wouldn't argue about it, but I've personally never heard someone use it in any way other than what I've described.
 
I wish I had the luxury of having supportive parents. My sexual orientation has been a roller coaster to make a decent conclusion because sometimes I can't tell what I am anymore. What doesn't help is that my family is generally not supportive of queer issues.

I hate this timeline...
 
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As for sexual orientation, I definitely don't find it necessary. I'm a virgin and I wouldn't mind that not changing at all. Unfortunately finding someone that isn't interested at all in stuff like that is damn near impossible. I used to identify as apothisexual (meaning sex repulsed) but I don't think I'd mind it with someone after forming a very close bond... but the confusion comes from if I'm just giving in and doing it eventually because I know that finding someone that is apothisexual or okay with not doing stuff like that everyday is in fact impossible. I'm not necessarily disgusted, but like, I do not see a point? It's not a necessary part of a relationship in my opinion.
Actually starting to think it may be the part I bolded, which isn’t a good look. I shouldn’t have to change to cater to someone’s sexual desires. Ugh. I hate this generation and the importance of sex.
 
Actually starting to think it may be the part I bolded, which isn’t a good look. I shouldn’t have to change to cater to someone’s sexual desires. Ugh. I hate this generation and the importance of sex.
I know it may not mean as much coming from me, because I'm demisexual but functionally, basically, still apothisexual (it's like that one person is okay, otherwise it makes me feel sick just thinking about it), but I whole-heartedly agree with you. It should never be necessary to maintain a relationship. for me relationships are based on mutual love, trust, respect, understanding, that kind of thing. having a physical attraction is secondary for me, it comes after a strong emotional bond (and by extension, demiromantic attraction) has been established. and of course there will be people who never actually experience that physical attraction. either way, whether or not that physical attraction is there, I still firmly believe that a sexual relationship is not at all necessary to be happy with someone. so no, you should not have to change yourself to cater to someone else or just to make them happy. I've seen people in relationships like that, it's pretty sad.
 
I really want to come out at work as non-binary, but the GM is on vacation (rip) and won't be back until Monday, which I work. I think it's best to do it sooner rather than later because I haven't worked at this place very long. -- Okay, it's been about a year, but up until a few months ago, I have only been working once or twice a week.

I was hoping to get straight to the point considering the GM told me personally that she fired someone for making homophobic comments. She basically asked me if I talked to that person, and when I said no, she said "Well don't. I fired him for making homophobic comments, and that's not going to happen at my store." That is LITERALLY what she said, word for word. Now, I'm not a manager, so I was confused why she trusted me with this information, but it hit me that she must suspect I'm LGBT. It's blatantly obvious with my representation. Plus, the person I talk to most there also happens to be non-binary.

I just planned on saying something along the lines of "I'm actually non-binary and I've been going by _(chosen name here)_. I just haven't felt comfortable enough to come out at work until now." Is this a good way to go about it? Straight to the point? Because honestly, my enby friend convinced me this is a safe-space and lowkey encouraged me to do so.
 
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Okay but my manager got my name changed in the database. I’m not just being referred to my chosen name at work but everything is changed with the company?? This is an absolute win. 🤘🏻

I know it sucks not being able to be out at work and being constantly deadnamed. But there are accepting people out there!!

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this discussion was happening in the WBY thread but I'll move my response here.


I also dress very androgynously (I like wearing dark/neutral colours, long sleeve shirts or sweatshirts, plain jeans, etc), I wear a binder, I wear my hair short, not to mention I have a nametag with my pronouns on top of wearing my pronoun pin. and patrons still, more often than not, refer to me as she/her. 🫠

to be fair, I really don't pass well at all. I wouldn't blame anyone for not using he/him if I wasn't wearing a pronoun pin, that's why I wear it all the time when I go places. but it really sucks when people constantly say the wrong thing even when I wear it. I'd rather not have a giant sign floating over my head saying "this person uses he/him" lol.

I don't have any desire to change myself just so people will say the right pronoun, but of course that brings its own challenges. I try not to let it get to me if it's someone I don't know or don't interact with much, but if it's someone I see and/or talk to every day? yeah they're gonna use the right pronoun whether they want to or not.
 
People usually see me as androgynous anyway and come to the conclusion pretty quickly that I'm non-binary, which I'm very fortunate for. The people misgendering me/using the wrong pronouns are usually people over the age of 40 and are clearly set on the fact that soft facial features + feminine voice = female. I guess that is partially my fault for continuing to talk in a feminine voice but it's not like you can just change your voice?? Also, my voice doesn't even bother me that much. I don't desire to be 100% man and just want to present in an androgynous, non-binary way. Some people just choose to see either female or male, though, which sucks.

Can I just exist as a they/them???


to be fair, I really don't pass well at all. I wouldn't blame anyone for not using he/him if I wasn't wearing a pronoun pin, that's why I wear it all the time when I go places. but it really sucks when people constantly say the wrong thing even when I wear it. I'd rather not have a giant sign floating over my head saying "this person uses he/him" lol.
I have a pronoun pin that's somewhat discreet. It has pastel purple lettering on a black background, lol. I'm under the impression that the people who care enough will see it, and those who don't notice likely weren't going to use the correct pronouns in the first place.
 
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